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Katie: Howdy and welcome to “The Wellness Mama Podcast.” I’m Katie from wellnessmama.com and wellnesse.com, that’s wellness with an E on the tip. And this episode is lots about temperature, sleep, studying, and much more. That is an thrilling one for me. I’m right here with Dr. Craig Heller, who’s a physician at Yale. He acquired his PhD from Yale in 1970. He did a post-doctorate fellowship on the Scripps Establishment of Oceanography. He joined Stanford College in 1972, the place he’s now the Lorry Lokey Enterprise Wire Professor of Biology and Human Biology. He’s held many positions at Stanford. And he’s completed lots of analysis targeted on the neurobiology of sleep, circadian rhythms and thermoregulation, together with on issues like mammalian hibernation, and temperature controls. And this is among the causes I wished to have him on at present, to speak about an enchanting…the Stanford cool mitt examine.
And we go deep on lots of these subjects, together with how he obtained into warmth change analysis, the fascinating approach that the mind regulates physique temperature and the way this can be utilized to our profit for athletic efficiency, for sleep. He talks in regards to the astounding examine the place that they had somebody go from 180 pull-ups over units…in units of 10, 10 units, to 618 by including a cooling protocol, and he provides some tips for the way we will all experiment with this in our personal lives.
We discuss lots about temperature regulation and sleep hygiene, methods to enhance sleep that may be useful to your kids as effectively. We discuss gentle and circadian rhythms, and a lot extra. He was such a enjoyable interview for me. I’ve adopted his work for a very long time, and he’s capable of give some actually sensible purposes for a few of his actually fascinating areas of analysis. I do know that you’ll get pleasure from this interview. I definitely did, and I’m excited to use a few of his concepts to my very own experimentation with athletic efficiency and in addition sleep. So with out additional ado, let’s be part of Dr. Heller. Dr. Heller, welcome. And thanks so, a lot for being right here.
Craig: Properly, my pleasure. Thanks for inviting me.
Katie: I’m very excited to talk with you. I’ve adopted your work and have so, many instructions I need to go at present. However earlier than we bounce into the science aspect, I’ve notes in my present notes about some superb issues that you’ve completed. And I’ve to listen to just a little bit about swimming on the North Pole and the truth that you probably did a thousand pushups in your sixtieth birthday. That’s unbelievable.
Craig: You bought my deepest secrets and techniques there. No, the journey to the North Pole was a Stanford alumni journey by which I used to be the school host and the speaker, and my daughter and I all the time had a pact that every time we took a hike and we got here to a brand new lake, we needed to bounce in. It didn’t matter what time of 12 months. So, once I had the possibility to go to the North Pole, I instantly known as her up and stated, okay, that is our likelihood. We’ve obtained to take a swim on the North Pole. And we did.
Katie: That’s superb. The farthest north I’ve been is the Lapland space of Finland. And we did the sauna after which obtained within the…it was 24-degree water, however transferring water. So, it wasn’t frozen. And that’s undoubtedly the coldest I’ve ever skilled. It was subsequent degree.
Craig: It’s fairly a shock. However zero is zero. No, freezing is freezing. So, whether or not you’re within the Sierra, Nevada, the place we hike lots, or on the North Pole, it’s just about the identical chilly publicity.
Katie: That’s a very good level. And it’s a very good segue as a result of we’re gonna discuss fairly a bit about chilly at present and, particularly, a few of your analysis round this. I really feel like there’s some base phrases we will outline after which delve into the specifics of what you discovered. However I’d love to listen to how you bought into this…form of you’ve found a novel warmth change property with sure areas of pores and skin. So, perhaps stroll us into how you bought into that analysis.
Craig: Properly, it form of got here from a problem or a guess that lots of my work needed to do with how the mind regulates physique temperature and that in fact was work with animals, together with hibernators. And sooner or later a pal who’s an anesthesiologist challenged my colleague and I and stated, “Properly, you assume, you recognize, so, a lot about temperature regulation. I guess you couldn’t remedy an issue now we have within the restoration room.” “Properly, what’s that?” Properly, sufferers come into restoration very chilly, they’re hypothermic, and it takes them and it takes the nurses hours to get them to cease shivering and so they rip stitches, they even break enamel and the beds are virtually leaping up and down with the shivering. I stated to my pal, you recognize, “Properly, that’s a trivial downside.” Properly, no, it’s not a trivial downside. It’s a really troublesome downside as a result of whenever you’re hypothermic in anesthesia and also you’re popping out of anesthesia, you might be very chilly and also you constrict your entire blood vessels.
You retain the blood within the core of your physique, and subsequently, it’s arduous to get warmth throughout the pores and skin. So, for those who use scorching blankets, for those who use radiant heaters, it’s very arduous to rewarm these sufferers. So, we obtained the concept that, “Properly, we might put an arm or a leg right into a chamber with a destructive strain, a vacuum, that may pull blood into that arm or leg. After which we might warmth that arm or leg and that may then ship warmth to the remainder of the physique.” So, my colleague, Dennis Gron, he constructed an equipment to do this. He took it over to the restoration room and, effectively, within the first affected person, there was no shivering. It was like 8 to 10 minutes and the affected person was again as much as regular. And we couldn’t perceive why this was unbelievably profitable.
And simply to make a protracted story quick, we ultimately came upon that it had solely needed to do with the hand, not the entire arm. After which we got here to the belief that what we have been coping with was a mammalian adaptation for warmth loss. If you’re a mammal, you’ve got fur. We’re uncommon mammals. You probably have a fur coat, it’s nice within the wintertime, however for those who can’t take it off in the summertime, that’s an issue. So, mammals can have issues dissipating warmth in the summertime. So, the one areas of their physique that don’t have fur are the pads of the toes, the tongue, the nostril, the ears, and in primates, the higher a part of the face.
And what we found… We didn’t uncover it, however within the previous anatomical literature, there are particular blood vessels in these non-hairy pores and skin areas. And people blood vessels have been completely not understood as to what they have been for. And what they’re is that they’re shunts between the arteries and the veins. Usually, the blood goes from arteries by means of capillaries to veins, and capillaries are excessive resistance. So, what this shunt does is it bypasses the resistance so you possibly can ship massive volumes of blood by means of these pores and skin areas and, subsequently, dissipate warmth. So, you possibly can inform instantly, whenever you shake somebody’s hand what his or her thermal standing is. You couldn’t inform that for those who touched his or her arm. So, we found this quite basic mammalian adaptation for dissipating warmth. And we have been simply utilizing it in reverse to heat the sufferers within the restoration room.
Katie: And that is so fascinating to me. Simply out of curiosity, why are sufferers so chilly popping out of anesthesia? Is that this a aspect impact of the anesthesia itself after which the physique having to re-regulate?
Craig: Properly, whenever you’re below anesthesia, you’re completely vasodilated. I imply, there’s no constriction of the blood vessels. And likewise, working rooms are typically chilly so the surgeons and the nurses don’t sweat. And likewise, they’re not clothed and perhaps they’re being irrigated with fluids. So, it’s quite common for physique temperature to drop throughout anesthesia.
Katie: That is smart. Okay. And so, I could butcher the pronunciation of this, however from what I’ve learn, these are the glabrous areas of pores and skin, the palms and the face?
Craig: Sure. Proper. It’s basically non-hairy pores and skin. Now we expect we don’t have furry pores and skin, however we do. There are hair follicles in all of our pores and skin, besides these explicit areas. So, we’re uncommon mammals, however now we have the identical anatomical buildings.
Katie: And so they’re distinctive as a result of the blood can go straight from… They principally skip the capillaries, it may go straight from veins to arteries?
Craig: That’s proper. Goes really from arteries to veins.
Katie: Arteries to veins. Bought it.
Craig: Yeah. After which that cool blood goes proper again to the guts, and from the guts, it goes out to the muscle groups which are working. Okay? So, you’re cooling the muscle groups from the within out quite from the surface in.
Katie: And so, with anesthesia, you guys discovered this innate capability to heat, however on the opposite aspect of this equation, it has some actually cool implications due to its capability to really cool, from what I perceive? And I do know there’s some superb analysis on this, however, basically, I suppose my top-level understanding is it’s that warmth of the muscle groups that’s one of many limiting elements throughout train, it form of results in that suggestions mechanism and tells us to cease and that we will form of use this similar factor to our benefit within the different route?
Craig: You’re good. That’s an awesome rationalization. Yeah. Completely. One other function of being mammals is now we have a excessive physique temperature. So, we’re up round 37 levels, that’s centigrade or 98.6 Fahrenheit. And after we train, our temperature goes up. And we don’t have lots of scope. If we rise up to 40 levels, 39 or 40 levels centigrade or 100, 101 levels Fahrenheit, we’re in hassle. That undoubtedly is a hazard zone for people. And that’s known as hyperthermia. So, it’s very simple with heavy train, and particularly within the scorching surroundings… Consider ultra-marathoners in Loss of life Valley, you recognize, they’re actually, actually taking it to the restrict and difficult their our bodies. So, if you will get that warmth out of the physique, the muscle groups can carry on working. And we found that as a result of we have been excited about seeing what the best parameters have been for extracting warmth.
In different phrases, what ought to the temperature be? What ought to the vacuum be? What needs to be the circulate price? And so forth. We had a analysis assistant who was a health club rat, and he would go to the health club at evening after work. And so, we stated to him, “Why don’t you do your exercise right here within the lab, and that’ll increase your physique temperature, after which we’ll see what are the very best parameters for extracting that warmth.” So, he was doing pull-ups. He was doing 10 units of pull-ups to muscle failure with three-minute rests. After which on the finish of that collection of 10 pull-ups, we might measure his temperature and apply our prototype gadgets to extract the warmth. And sooner or later after we extracted the warmth, he went again to the pull-up bar and did the identical variety of pull-ups as in his first set and we stated, “Holy crow, what does that imply? The fatigue is gone.” And it needed to do with the temperature of the muscle. That’s what we found. So, we then began cooling him after each different set of pull-ups, and his efficiency plateaued to a sure extent. So, he elevated his work quantity dramatically from sooner or later to the subsequent.
Katie: And I obtained to learn a abstract of that examine, and it was actually astounding to me as a result of this was not a small, identical to marginal enchancment. This was a drastic distinction in efficiency even with out lots of relaxation days in between or any of the conventional stuff you would assume can be needed.
Craig: So, simply to provide the numbers, in that one explicit preliminary discovery, after we began cooling him after each different set of pull-ups, he went from a complete of 180 pull-ups, which is already superb, to 618 pull-ups in 10 units. It’s exceptional.
Katie: That basically, actually is astounding. That’s virtually what…virtually a 4X inference, which actually speaks to basically understanding that it’s not essentially the muscle power that’s the limiting think about these exercises, it’s that warmth. And from what we will inform within the information, is that this a protected solution to really manipulate that, like cooling the physique really lets the physique safely carry out at that degree?
Craig: Proper. You can’t decrease the physique temperature…why this method… These vessels will shut down if it will get too chilly. That’s why placing your hand in a bucket of ice water received’t work. It simply shuts down the warmth loss. So, it’s protected, from that regard, you possibly can’t induce hypothermia. So, the hazard is that for those who get to too excessive ranges of efficiency, you really begin doing harm to your tendons and ligaments. So, it’s good to have coaches and trainers to guard in opposition to that. However that’s on the excessive finish.
Katie: And doubtless most of us in regular on a regular basis exertion should not hitting the higher limits of athletic capability. That is only a actually superb software. And I’d guess additionally, has simply essential implications to know for the extra excessive instances as effectively. Like, for example, somebody who’s hypothermic, you discovered, you possibly can heat them. If somebody is having perhaps warmth stroke, I’d guess the identical is true, the simplest solution to cool them is to chill the palms, toes, and face, however not overcool it. So, not ice water however cool water?
Craig: Completely. You might have it. And though that is for athletic coaching… So, you talked about rising power. Properly, that’s for positive. What occurs is that whenever you improve your exercise, you improve your work quantity, the result’s a conditioning impact. This reaching of 618 pull-ups, that was over a interval of perhaps six weeks…six to eight weeks. However what you see is you see every day, you’ll be able to perform a little bit extra after which the remaining intervals between bouts of train, that’s whenever you get the hypertrophy of the muscle, the improved conditioning. So, you undoubtedly have impact. I had a gaggle of freshman ladies who have been doing an experiment that was a part of a seminar they have been in. So, we had them doing pushups. And a few of these freshman ladies, not athletes, they obtained to over 800 pushups. And so they got here in sooner or later and so they stated, “Dr. Heller, you price us some huge cash.” Why? “We had a proper dance this weekend. All of us had to purchase new sleeveless attire.”
Katie: That’s so humorous. And I’m curious, do now we have any greatest practices primarily based on the analysis you’ve completed of the very best methods to include this? I work with some athletes in rising their athletic efficiency, I’m additionally personally on a journey of getting stronger and weightlifting, after which I’ve youngsters who’re athletes. So, it makes me curious of, how can we use this in our personal lives? Like, are there greatest practices for the way lengthy, or what temperature, or what that protocol seems like?
Craig: Sure, there are. To begin with, you would verify… We’re simply popping out with a brand new machine that might be out there that’s now in form of beta testing in quite a lot of athletic groups, and with athletes, and with firefighters, and with army particular forces. However you possibly can test it out on the web site, coolmitt.com, C-O-O-L-M-I-T-T.com. And that offers you an thought of what’s out there now or will quickly be out there and the way it’s greatest used.
However temperature is essential. So, for athletes or individuals which are understanding commonly, we form of set the temperature between 12 and 15 levels centigrade, temperature of the water. However, for some individuals, that’s too chilly. So, an instance is we’ve labored with lots of a number of sclerosis sufferers. And people with a number of sclerosis might be very temperature-sensitive. If the temperature goes up just a little bit, both the room temperature, the outside temperature, or the physique temperatures, their signs are exacerbated. And with these people, the cooling drastically reduces their signs. They’ll return to regular functioning and never have to remain in air-conditioned locations. However, for them, for those who cool their palm or surfaces, these palms of the palms, beneath about 23 levels centigrade, then they may vasoconstrict. So, for these people often about 20 levels was a very good temperature.
Katie: Okay. So, form of a rudimentary solution to experiment with this appears like it will be to have cool water in that temperature vary and a cooler or one thing and check out placing the palms in between units or sprints or exercises?
Craig: So, that’s basically like faucet water. Okay? Let me return to one thing you talked about about security. I feel that is actually an essential problem as a result of yearly there are highschool athletes that go into heatstroke within the late summer time, early fall, with athletic practices. Now, in each single faculty, you’ve got defibrillators, however what number of college students get coronary heart assaults? None. However many, many go into warmth sickness or warmth stroke yearly. And there are even fatalities on account of heatstroke as a consequence of follow..not competitors, however follow.
So, I feel worrying about methods of quickly cooling these people is essential. Now, the advice for Nationwide Collegiate Athletic Affiliation is immersion in chilly water. And that completely works. That’s positive for those who immerse the entire physique in chilly water, however you don’t essentially have chilly water tub out there each place. Whereas, for those who assault the glabrous pores and skin, you possibly can apply it instantly. Even at first contact with the affected person, you possibly can apply it and it’ll carry them again.
Katie: Yeah. And a few follow-ups associated to this, simply from a proportion perspective, I take into consideration like, whenever you take a look at another substance that we will use for athletic efficiency, even steroids, you’re not getting this type of enhancements. And it is a protected, non-invasive, non-injectable, non-supplement temperature regulation, and also you’re not even speaking about excessive temperature. So, even earlier than that is extra mainstream adopted, which I agree with you, this needs to be in faculties, it’s a factor I really feel like as people and oldsters, we will implement to assist our youngsters and to assist ourselves with coaching.
Craig: Yeah. Completely. And you place your finger proper on the essential button, individuals are prepared to strive all kinds of issues that aren’t good for them. Efficiency-enhancing medication, they’re completely unhealthy information. And this really is way more efficacious than performance-enhancing medication. Now, you talked about weight lifting, and we’re speaking about that form of power conditioning, but it surely’s additionally true for endurance sports activities. Now, with the present gadgets that we’ve constructed, we will’t take them outdoor and use them constantly. We are able to use them episodically. However we’re within the strategy of designing and constructing wearable methods. And this might be crucial, for instance, for firefighters. And likewise, we obtained onto this as a result of we obtained emails from Ebola staff in Sierra Leone. They stated, you recognize, “We have now to deal with these sufferers, and we go into the new zone in our PPE, private protecting gear, and we will’t be in there for greater than 15, 20 minutes. So, isn’t there one thing you are able to do?” So, that set us on the observe of attempting to construct wearable methods.
Katie: Yeah. I can see so many potential makes use of, and I’m actually excited to maintain following the work you’re doing on this. I even have simply anecdotally observed, in myself, the identical is true in excessive chilly as effectively. Not within the working room, however I like doing chilly plunges generally for athletic restoration, and I’ve discovered that it’s my palms and my toes that restrict how lengthy I can get in there. And once I put on scuba gloves, like neoprene socks and gloves, I can get a lot extra muscle profit with out feeling as chilly and with out hitting that shiver level as quickly.
Craig: Proper. So, I guess whenever you come out, in a few minutes, you begin shivering. Yeah. So, what’s occurring is you’re dropping warmth from your entire peripheral tissue, your legs, your arms, and so forth. After which whenever you get out, your physique begins sending blood again into these limbs and it comes again into the core of your physique chilly. After which that’s whenever you see the extreme shivering.
Katie: That is smart. And, clearly, we’ve gotten to delve into the athletic and efficiency advantages of this, however there’s a lot extra associated to temperature than simply athletic efficiency. And I do know you’ve completed analysis in different areas as effectively and that there’s some crossover right here into the sleep world, which I feel might be a very good segue. I do know I’m a giant fan of sleeping with a chili pad, which cools my sleep surroundings. And there’s to be some well-established information on sleep temperature affecting issues like deep sleep, for example, and sleep period and variety of wake-ups. However let’s simply begin broad and discuss just a little bit about your sleep analysis as effectively.
Craig: Properly, the sleep analysis is sort of various. And very long time in the past, we did analysis on temperature and sleep, and what occurs to our regulation of physique temperature throughout sleep. Most not too long ago, my sleep analysis has to do with the function of sleep and circadian rhythms in studying in reminiscence. And particularly, we’re engaged on down syndrome, which is a situation that’s very, very…it’s the most typical genetic explanation for cognitive mental incapacity. And so, we’ve been working in that space. However going again to temperature, one of many attention-grabbing issues that was our first discovery was that, you recognize, now we have two sleep states. We have now REM sleep, fast eye motion sleep, which is one now we have vivid desires and nightmares. Okay? After which now we have non-rapid eye motion sleep, which is about 80% of our sleep.
And one of many attention-grabbing issues we discovered a very long time in the past was that in REM sleep, we don’t regulate our physique temperature. The inner thermostat is turned off. That’s only a aspect remark. Throughout non-REM sleep, we do regulate our physique temperature, however at a decrease degree than throughout wake. So, the thermostat within the mind is ready to a decrease degree whenever you fall asleep. Now, for those who fall asleep and also you’re feeling cool within the night, which is probably going, you’ll pull on a number of covers. Okay? And quarter-hour later, you get up sweating as a result of what’s occurred is you insulated your self to the temperature of your physique…to your regulated temperature earlier than sleep, your thermostat will get set down and now you’re too scorching.
So, it’s true {that a} cool surroundings is significantly better for sleeping. And the explanation for that ties these two areas of analysis collectively. What occurs whenever you’re too scorching in mattress? You stick out your palms otherwise you stick out your toes from below the covers, proper? So, for those who’re in a heat surroundings, that doesn’t assist. However for those who’re in a cool surroundings, that makes it doable to come back again into the regulated temperature that your mind is telling you you have to be at.
Katie: That is smart. And I’ve learn how there’s that…mammals have that adaptation of that our physique temperature does are likely to go up, I feel just a little bit, throughout sleep, which I’ve heard it defined, it got here from sleeping on the bottom and the temperature on the bottom would carry your physique temperature down, so we developed that adaptation to warmth the physique. However now we’re sleeping in these temperature-controlled environments, and such as you stated, we get scorching in the midst of the evening.
Craig: Properly, yeah. Generally, temperature goes down with sleep. It goes down with the circadian timing of sleep as effectively. It comes again up and it begins coming again up within the morning earlier than you get up. Okay? So, temperatures typically decrease late within the day than round midday, however then whenever you fall asleep, it takes an extra dip. There’s an organization that I’ve been an advisor for known as Eight Sleep, and so they make a mattress which is temperature-controlled. However, as well as, you possibly can program it to a temperature cycle that greatest matches your physique’s settings. Okay? And not too long ago, the San Francisco 49ers purchased these beds for all of their gamers, and so they love them. They are saying they’re getting significantly better sleep.
Katie: Having experimented with the temperature regulation at evening, I’ll say it spoils you although. Now once I journey, I miss having the ability to be cool at evening. However from understanding this, would it not be logical to then assume that if somebody wore simply the cool mitt throughout sleep, it will have an identical and even doubtlessly greater impact, or would you not need to put on that in sleep?
Craig: I feel it will have an impact. I don’t essentially know that it will be greater. The opposite factor is simply cooling earlier than you fall asleep. So, for those who used it earlier than sleep so it removed any extra warmth load that you’ve… Let’s say you probably did a exercise within the night, you’re going to go to mattress with an additional warmth load. So, for those who might take that warmth load away, it will facilitate your sleep.
Katie: That is smart. I’ve observed, and I don’t assume most individuals need to do that, but when I get within the chilly plunge like an hour or so earlier than bedtime, my deep sleep numbers enhance, which is smart, in gentle of what you simply stated, however I really feel like most individuals aren’t gonna be gung-ho about leaping into chilly water proper earlier than mattress. So, this could be a better, gentler strategy.
Craig: Yeah. Proper. I feel so.
Katie: And I feel sleep is a giant problem for mothers, particularly with youngsters at varied ages and what comes together with that. So, primarily based in your analysis, what are a few of these sensible issues we will pull that could be ideas to assist enhance sleep high quality and period primarily based on what you’re seeing within the analysis?
Craig: Properly, there was a giant sea change within the sleep drugs world within the final decade or so. And 20 years in the past, the massive factor have been sleeping capsules, all kinds of various sorts of sleeping capsules. And plenty of of them are nonetheless out there now and are used and are literally prescribed for individuals who have severe issues. However these medication have issues as effectively. You turn out to be acclimated to them, and subsequently the doses should go up, should go up, should go up. And so they have unwanted effects, okay? So, what has occurred within the sleep drugs world within the final 10, 15 years, has been the rise of behavioral remedy, cognitive-behavioral remedy. And that’s used to enhance sleep hygiene. So, sleep hygiene appears like an odd idea, however it’s. It’s what you are able to do to enhance the standard of your sleep.
And there are simple issues equivalent to have a scheduled bedtime. Don’t simply work till you’re feeling as for those who don’t need to work anymore after which go to mattress. You recognize, don’t try this. Have a scheduled bedtime. And don’t work, or don’t do issues that you’d usually be doing through the day for the hour or hour and a half, two hours earlier than bedtime. Okay? One of many essential issues is to not use computer systems as a result of computer systems have lots of blue gentle. And what blue gentle does is, within the night, publicity to blue gentle phase-delays your circadian system. So, it makes you react as if it’s not as late because it actually is. Okay? So, you don’t need to phase-delay your circadian system. You need your circadian clock to favor sleep on the proper time.
One other factor is simply keep a selected sleep surroundings, and that is known as contextual conditioning, so that you just solely affiliate the bed room with sleep and intercourse. That’s it, you recognize? Not work, you don’t use your bed room as an workplace. Now, for individuals who reside in effectivity flats, that could be troublesome, however there are methods you are able to do it in organising the room. And, in fact, the essential factor is your individual conduct. Flip off the pc an hour earlier than mattress. Don’t attempt to be considering proper up till bedtime after which anticipate your mind’s gonna shut off and fall asleep.
Katie: And I’ve observed that gentle manipulation within the morning additionally appears to have a giant affect on sleep patterns as effectively. And I inform individuals this lots, it’s a free…appears so easy, and it has such a profound influence, simply going exterior. Even when it’s a cloudy day, simply going exterior whenever you get up, begins that clock.
Craig: Oh, yeah. Outdoors gentle, even on a cloudy day is a whole lot…no, 1000’s of occasions brighter than your inside gentle. We don’t understand it as a result of our eyes quickly modify to the sunshine degree. However whenever you go exterior, you get a lot, a lot better visible stimulation, gentle stimulation. And early morning gentle, together with train, is nice for retaining your circadian clock synchronized. Your circadian clock just isn’t working at precisely 24 hours. So, some individuals are early, they’re larks, and different individuals are owls, they have an inclination to run later day-after-day. However one of many methods you retain your clock in sync with the actual world is that gentle publicity within the morning.
Katie: And also you’ve additionally, from my studying, completed some work particular to insomnia. And it is a downside I hear from increasingly people who find themselves seeming to expertise insomnia. Do you’ve got any insomnia-specific suggestions?
Craig: I’m not an knowledgeable on insomnia in any respect. And the first therapies or the advisable therapies for insomnia are the cognitive behavioral remedy, organising a sample of sleep so that you just anticipate to sleep, you’re prepared for sleep, you’re in the best place for sleep day-after-day. Now, for people who find themselves actually, actually, you recognize, horrible insomniacs, there are protocols which are used. So, one of many issues that’s used is a protocol by which the people are solely allowed to be in mattress for, let’s say, six hours or seven hours. Okay?
And so, day after day, they’re solely allowed to be in mattress for six hours. So, they’re gonna get a sleep debt. They’re going to get, you recognize, strain for sleep. Okay. So, then permit them seven hours. Okay. So, ultimately, get to a degree the place whenever you go to mattress, you might be tuned to sleep. So, it appears counterproductive to deprive somebody of sleep who has insomnia, however that’s a approach of getting their system again in sync with the way in which it needs to be functioning.
Katie: That is smart. I hadn’t thought of that strategy.
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You additionally talked about REM sleep being the time of desires and nightmares. And that is really a breakfast dialog not too long ago at my home that I’d love to have the ability to clarify to my youngsters higher, however why will we dream? What’s occurring to our brains throughout your dream states?
Craig: Properly, after we are in REM sleep, we’re paralyzed. There’s inhibition of all the instructions going out to our muscle groups. So, the supposed rationale for this, the evolutionary rationale, is that it prevents us from appearing out our desires. Okay? So, appearing out desires just isn’t sleepwalking. Sleepwalking happens in non-REM sleep. However appearing out desires for somebody who has REM sleep problem, they’ll injure themselves or their sleeping companions due to violent actions. They’ll rise up from mattress and begin to run and run into one thing. They’ll do one thing very violent, like break furnishings or put their head by means of a wall. It’s unbelievable what individuals can do with REM conduct dysfunction. So, to forestall that, or the explanation we don’t do that’s our muscle groups are basically paralyzed throughout REM sleep.
And that additionally applies to a few of the sensory enter. So, what’s occurring within the mind throughout REM sleep is the mind is reactivated. So, for those who take a look at the electroencophilic REM, the EEG, the EEG of REM sleep seems similar to wakefulness as a result of the cortex of the mind, the considering cap of the mind, is reactivated. Okay? So, that reactivation is impartial of any suggestions from muscle groups and any sensory enter. So, it’s like placing the mind in impartial. It will probably simply freely affiliate. And that’s why we get these…what appear to be affordable desires after we’re dreaming, however then after we get up, we understand how weird they have been. They’re simply completely unrealistic. However they might have parts of issues that have been on our minds earlier than we went to sleep, issues that occurred the day earlier than. However it’s a course of, I feel, of free affiliation of data within the mind, not constrained by sensory suggestions from muscle groups and joints and from eyes and ears, and so forth.
Katie: And I don’t know if that is true, you possibly can verify or deny for me, however I’ve learn that generally whenever you’re falling asleep and you’ve got that have of like jolting for a second, that that’s the physique form of testing to see if you’re going into that state of paralysis. Is that proper or is that city fantasy?
Craig: It’s in all probability a fantasy. And the reason being that besides in sure pathological circumstances, we don’t go into REM sleep instantly from wakefulness. We all the time enter sleep by means of non-REM sleep after which after… Properly, after we go to mattress after about perhaps 60 minutes, we’ll have our first REM episode. Okay? After which it cycles all through the evening, about 5 cycles of non-REM, REM, non-REM, REM. And way more REM late within the evening, a a lot deeper non-REM early within the evening. So, what you’re serious about or speaking about might be this drowsy state or what we name stage one non-REM sleep in which there’s nonetheless some affiliation with wakeful expertise. And swiftly, you could understand you’re falling asleep after which you’ve got some temporary arousal that you just return as much as wakefulness. So, it’s that tough stage between wakefulness and sleep that’s not steady, and that can lead to… One other factor it leads to is a giant phrase, hypnagogic hallucinations. So, it’s as soon as once more, form of like a dreamlike situation, but it surely’s not REM sleep.
Katie: Okay. That’s useful to know. And I’d love to speak just a little bit extra about sleep phases. And perhaps now that issues like Oura rings and trackers have gotten extra widespread, individuals have extra information associated to their sleep. I’ve learn that deep sleep is a reparative state of the physique and that it’s an essential factor to be sure that we’re getting sufficient deep sleep. I’ve observed in my very own life, like I stated, cool appears to assist deep sleep in addition to not consuming too near bedtime, getting morning daylight. However is {that a} right understanding, that we needs to be prioritizing this deep restfulness, and what are a few of the methods we will hopefully result in better-quality sleep?
Craig: Yeah. Properly, you simply talked about one thing very attention-grabbing, and that’s not consuming too late. That has one other impact, and that’s weight achieve. That the identical variety of energy eaten late has a a lot greater impact on physique weight than eaten earlier. So, to keep up physique weight, even with no eating regimen or what have you ever, for those who take late eaters and you place them on a extra affordable schedule, like consuming at 5:00 or 6:00 within the night, you recognize, 6:00, 7:00 within the night, they may drop some weight even with out imposing any dietary restrictions. So, that’s perhaps not what you have been considering, however there are many well being… Properly, let me simply say this. To begin with, we spend one-third of our lives sleeping, however we don’t know why. So, I can’t offer you any definitive reply.
I may give you solutions which are partial, in different phrases, concepts about what sleep features are and why we all know that or why we expect that, however there’s nobody who can say sleep is for this explicit operate. It in all probability has many features. And we now are understanding that the evolution of sleep is far deeper than we thought beforehand as a result of our main approach of finding out sleep has been the electroencephalogram. The electroencephalogram is just good for mammals and birds which have a cerebral cortex. Okay? So, it wasn’t helpful for finding out turtles, and fish, and snakes, and lizards, and different issues.
However now we’re starting to make use of totally different metrics for figuring out sleep and traits of sleep. And it appears the farther again we go within the evolutionary historical past, the extra proof we discover for sleep-like states. Now, whether or not they serve the identical operate in all animals, we don’t know. So, we’re just about restricted to finding out… For purposeful research, we just about restricted to mammals, however there’s increasingly research being completed on different species equivalent to fruit flies, zebrafish. And these are actually widespread fashions for finding out sleep.
Katie: Yeah. And shorter lifespan makes them simpler to check. That’s actually fascinating about… I do know there’s analysis behind that of not consuming near bedtime and I do know it’s not as socially enjoyable or simple to adapt typically to our regular life-style, however I do discover essentially the most distinction once I cease consuming by even like 4:00 or 5:00 within the afternoon. And with regards to like time-restricted feeding, doing that earlier within the day, which… it looks like physiologically our our bodies are designed to soak up and break down energy earlier within the day anyway, and now we have that longer digestive interval the place we expect we’re fasting, however we nonetheless have meals in our physique. And so, giving time for that earlier than sleep. And I really feel like several dialogue on sleep and temperature, I’d be remiss to not ask, and I’ve a be aware to ask you about hibernation and bears. I do know, completely a deviation, however I’m so curious simply to listen to just a little bit about that.
Craig: Oh, yeah. So, I’ve completed lots of work in my profession on hibernators, however virtually all small hibernators, as a result of you possibly can keep them within the lab. So, floor squirrels and chipmunks, and hamsters, and so forth. And we’ve completed lots to indicate that hibernation is absolutely an evolutionary extension of sleep. That downward regulation of physique temperature throughout sleep is exaggerated in hibernators. And the opposite factor which isn’t exaggerated however dampened is the circadian system. As a result of the circadian system features to wake us up, it helps alertness quite than sleep. So, there are animals that go into toper each day, so their circadian system remains to be waking them up on the finish of the sleep part. However in different animals which are true hibernators, they may go into toper for a lot of days, perhaps seven, eight days.
So, what we present in these animals is that the circadian system is dampened approach, approach, approach down. So, in a few of them, it nonetheless continues to operate and may very well be what brings them out of hibernation each seven days or so. However the query was all the time, what about bears? You recognize, individuals have argued whether or not bears hibernate or not. So, positive, they disappear within the winter, they go into their winter dens, however there was some proof that they have been nonetheless pretty heat. They weren’t actually in deep hibernation. So, fairly just a few years in the past, some colleagues and I made a decision we have been gonna reply this query. And considered one of my colleagues, Brian Barnes, was at College of Alaska the place bears are widespread. So, what we did is we constructed a facility at College of Alaska the place we might maintain bears over winter, and we might instrument them with EEG and EMG. So, electroencephalogram, electromyogram, electrooculogram, physique temperature, metabolism, and so forth and so forth, and examine all of them winter lengthy.
And it’s true that they… The place did the bears come from? There’s a “three strikes you’re out” legislation in Alaska that if a bear is an issue bear and it comes right into a neighborhood, it is going to be trapped and brought away and launched. Properly, it’s collared then, so that they know who’s who. And if the bear comes again thrice then it’s eradicated, it’s euthanized. So, we requested the Alaska Fish and Recreation to allow us to have a few these bears every winter. So, through the years, we’ve studied 18 bears. And this is a gigantic, monumental quantity of information as a result of, you recognize, EEG is one thing which is being collected on a frequency of lower than a second, you recognize, many occasions per second. So, you possibly can think about the quantity of recordings, the information information. So, we’re analyzing all of that now.
However what we discovered is the bears do go into toper, however they go down solely to about 32, 33 levels physique temperature. They don’t have these periodic arousals through the winter just like the small hibernators do each 5, 6, 7 days, they arrive out of hibernation and return in once more. The opposite factor that’s attention-grabbing is that the small hibernators, as they enter hibernation, they lose REM sleep. They’ve then virtually steady what appears to be steady with non-REM sleep. And the bears have REM and non-REM sleep throughout hibernation. And the opposite factor is that they lose their circadian rhythms. Through the hibernation season, they now not have a circadian rhythm and within the spring, that begins to come back again. So, these are the types of issues we’re studying in regards to the bears.
Katie: That’s so fascinating and possibly very enjoyable analysis to get to do. That sounds thrilling.
Craig: Yeah. And it might have crucial medical purposes afterward as a result of within the induction of hypothermia, might be a useful process to have the ability to use on stroke victims, coronary heart assault victims, individuals who have had traumatic accidents. However there’s lots we don’t learn about how the human physique features at low temperature. So, if we learn how the bears, one other massive mammal, how the bears have tailored to operate at a decrease temperature, that would have medical purposes.
Katie: Properly, I’m excited to maintain following your analysis on that. And some questions I wanna be sure now we have time to get by means of, you talked about your analysis on studying and reminiscence, and I’d love to simply hear what the objective is with that and the present state of what you’re taking a look at associated to studying and reminiscence.
Craig: Properly, we got here to this due to a graduate scholar of a colleague. His title is Fabian Fernandez. He’s now a professor at College of Arizona and he began investigating studying and reminiscence in a mouse mannequin of down syndrome. And the mouse mannequin has extreme studying deficits identical to people with down syndrome do. And Fabian got here up with the concept that… And we take into consideration the nervous system virtually as a puppet grasp pulling strings, you recognize, the neuron fires, and the muscle twitches. And what Fabian stated is we have a tendency to consider the nervous system an excessive amount of by way of excitation, however what about inhibition? You recognize, inhibition is essential. So, the mind has to have a stability of excitation/inhibition. So, he thought perhaps it’s the inhibition which is just too excessive.
So, the very first thing we did is we did research of sleep and circadian rhythms in these mice and we discovered there have been no dramatic variations in sleep. And really, their circadian rhythms have been stronger. So, we knew that sleep and circadian rhythms are concerned in studying and reminiscence, however they didn’t appear to be the issue with the down syndrome mannequin mice. And what Fabian found is that if he enhanced inhibition within the mind… There are particular neurotransmitters, the chemical compounds that talk between neurons. There are particular neurotransmitters that are inhibitory. So, he used medication which mimic the exercise of these neurotransmitters. And lo and behold, the educational was normalized. These animals that had extreme studying incapacity have been now functioning like their littermates who didn’t have the situation.
After which essentially the most exceptional factor on this analysis was {that a} short-term therapy with these medication resulted in a really long-term normalization. So, it wasn’t simply, you recognize, you are taking the tablet and also you get an impact. No. The short-term therapy, two weeks of day by day doses with the drug normalized the conduct for months. So, it modified the way in which the mind was functioning. So, our problem has been, to begin with, doing as a lot characterization of those drug results as doable to have the ability to transfer it to the clinic, but in addition, to know what is modified within the mind. And that’s fairly sophisticated neurophysiology, which I don’t assume I might describe.
Katie: That’s actually thrilling although. What else is in the way forward for analysis for you? Like I stated, I observe your analysis, so, I’m excited to listen to.
Craig: Properly, we’re finding out now one other gene, which is triplicated in Down syndrome. And this gene, its title is USP 16. So, it’s not United Parcel Service, but it surely’s USP 16. And what this gene does is it’s very a lot concerned in figuring out when… You’ve heard of stem cells, cells that may grow to be any form of totally different cell. So, what this gene does is it performs a job in figuring out whether or not the stem cells differentiate once they divide or whether or not they produce one other stem cell. So, that’s known as renewal. So, are they maintaining the inhabitants of stem cells or are they happening the pathway to differentiation? And the triplication of this gene in down syndrome mannequin mice has a giant impact on improvement. So, the brains are smaller in all probability as a result of the neural stem cells have differentiated quite than maintained themselves. Bone cells are affected.
So, the down syndrome mice have a a lot greater degree of osteoporosis-like signs, and that’s improved by eliminating this explicit triplication. The opposite strategy we’re taking is wanting on the… There’s one other gene which could be very essential, which is triplicated and that’s what’s known as the amyloid precursor protein gene. It’s very a lot concerned in Alzheimer’s illness. And people with down syndrome have early-onset Alzheimer’s, so we’re finding out what the profit is by normalizing the APP gene in these animals. So, that’s the form of factor we’re doing. Within the case of the human efficiency, we proceed to check the function of temperature in muscle operate. And one of many issues we’re discovering now could be that the manufacturing of lactate by muscle is temperature-dependent. So, we all know there’s the parable that muscle failure, muscle fatigue, is brought on by lactic acid.
Properly, it’s actually extra accurately lactate, which is produced, not lactic acid. However we all know now that lactate doesn’t trigger fatigue. You possibly can really elevate blood lactate ranges and it doesn’t affect efficiency, however when you’ve got excessive efficiency, you get an increase in blood lactate. So, might it’s that lactate doesn’t trigger fatigue, however fatigue causes lactate? And what’s it in regards to the chemistry, the power chemistry within the muscle, that leads to that elevation of lactate? What we discover is that the lactate threshold, the edge of exercise that you just begin seeing rise of lactate within the blood is a operate of physique temperature.
That if we begin individuals exercising in low physique temperature, they go lots longer earlier than they begin exhibiting this improve in lactate. If they begin at a excessive physique temperature, lactate comes up in a short time. So, we’re finding out basically what the importance of that’s. So, it’s clearly a biomarker of fatigue, and if we might use that as a biomarker, we might maybe enhance conditioning protocols. We might design conditioning protocols that didn’t trigger fatigue so quickly.
Katie: Properly, that circles again to the place our dialog began. I’m very excited to proceed following that work and in addition to experiment with this myself simply anecdotally as I attempt to get stronger and raise weights, and with my youngsters as athletes. Like I stated, I’ve adopted your work for some time, and it’s an absolute honor to get to listen to extra about it at present. A few final wrap-up questions. The primary being, if there’s a e book or quite a lot of books which have profoundly impacted your life, and if that’s the case, what they’re and why?
Craig: Properly, I learn very extensively. So I can’t say anybody e book, however I have a tendency to love to learn novels as a result of they inform me about circumstances of the world, circumstances of life, that aren’t in my expertise. So, it broadens my information of what’s occurring in nature and on the planet. I prefer to learn books about unbelievable human performances like Arctic exploration or one thing that’s simply, you recognize, superb as a result of that I get pleasure from studying about what the actual limits are or aren’t for human efficiency. After which, maybe, this isn’t what you may anticipate to listen to. One of many books that’s had a big impact on my life is my very own e book. I’ve a textbook with different authors known as “Life: The Science of Biology.” So, we’re now going into our thirteenth version. So, why does this have such a huge impact on me? It forces me, each few years, to replace myself in my area broadly. So, if I hadn’t had that e book to fret about, I in all probability would’ve narrowed, narrowed, narrowed my work and my pursuits and fallen approach behind in understanding different areas of my area, usually.
Katie: That’s undoubtedly a brand new advice. I’ll be sure that’s linked as effectively if I can discover it on-line and…
Craig: I’ll all the time sustain.
Katie: I like that. The place can individuals observe you and your work in the event that they wanna continue to learn extra from you or see your analysis?
Craig: Properly, that’s a very good query. I don’t know. I’m not superb at maintaining a web site, however we’re constructing a web site now for our down analysis work and it’s basically the Down Syndrome Analysis Heart at Stanford. So, that may be pulled up. And CoolMitt website goes to be posting all of our work. It posts already the work that we’ve completed. So, you possibly can entry the scientific papers, the research that we’ve completed by means of that specific entry.
Katie: I’ll be sure that’s linked within the present notes. For you guys listening, wellnessmama.fm. And, maybe, we will do one other spherical sooner or later with some updates and analysis as issues go alongside. After which, lastly, any parting recommendation for the viewers at present that might be associated to something we’ve talked about or solely unrelated life recommendation?
Craig: Certain. One bit of recommendation I give my college students is observe your pursuits. Don’t let different individuals let you know what you have to be doing. Observe your pursuits as a result of it’s when you’re excited about what you’re doing, you’ll do your greatest work. So you then may ask, “What restrictions needs to be placed on that?” And that jogs my memory recommendation that I all the time gave my daughter when she was rising up and he or she hated it. And this got here from the musical, “Hair,” this previous musical of hippie days. And the quote from the musical was, “Do no matter you wanna do, be no matter you wanna be, simply as long as you don’t damage anyone.”
Katie: I find it irresistible.
Craig: I believed that was superb recommendation. And the opposite recommendation I’d offer you is sleep effectively. Sleep is essential. There are three pillars to well being, eating regimen, train, and sleep. And we are usually fairly good about our eating regimen and fairly non secular about our train, however we’re all the time able to sacrifice sleep when there’s one thing else we expect we needs to be doing. And that’s not good.
Katie: Properly, that’s an ideal place to wrap up. Thanks for sharing your time at present and for all of the work that you just’re doing. This was such a enjoyable dialog, and I’m very grateful to you for being right here.
Craig: Thanks. I loved it. And I like speaking with you. You’re actually an excellent questioner. You perceive what we’re speaking about. Thanks.
Katie: Thanks. And thanks, as all the time, to all of you for listening, sharing your most respected sources, your time, your power, and your consideration with us at present. We’re each so grateful that you just did. And I hope that you’ll be part of me once more on the subsequent episode of the “WellnessMama Podcast.”
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